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A Christian finds acceptance of homosexuality in the Bible


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 Post subject: Re: A Christian finds acceptance of homosexuality in the Bib
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Yeah, Nietzsche is kind of hit and miss for me. I prefer Voltaire. They seem to have come to the same conclusions by different paths. Sometimes I get them confused.

What I've been doing is eliminating imaginary things from my perspective of reality.
I really don't want to offend the faithful. But, If you ask me what I think you're bound to get an earful.




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And Socrates himself is particularly missed...A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.

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Yeah, Nietzsche is kind of hit and miss for me. I prefer Voltaire. They seem to have come to the same conclusions by different paths. Sometimes I get them confused.

What I've been doing is eliminating imaginary things from my perspective of reality.
I really don't want to offend the faithful. But, If you ask me what I think you're bound to get an earful.


Well, I generally don't like Nietzsche, although I also disagree with people who say his ideas were the basis of fascism. To some extent, yes, but only after his sister edited some of his writings to make them more Nazi-friendly.

Reading Ayn Rand, especially Atlas Shrugged, I often get the sense that she essentially wants to argue for Nietzsche's "master morality" as a positive ethos for humankind. The interesting thing hiding behind it, of course, is the idea that the weak should serve the strong, and not complain.

As for Voltaire, I love the fellow, well except when he advocates for Enlightened Despotism.

http://www.philosophybasics.com/philoso ... taire.html

[snip]

Although he argued on intellectual grounds for the establishment of a constitutional monarchy in France, suggesting a bias towards Liberalism, he actually distrusted democracy, which he saw as propagating the idiocy of the masses. He saw an enlightened monarch or absolutist (a benevolent despotism, similar to that advocated by Plato), advised by philosophers like himself, as the only way to bring about necessary change, arguing that it was in the monarch's rational interest to improve the power and wealth of his subjects and kingdom.

Voltaire is often thought of as an atheist, although he did in fact take part in religious activities and even built a chapel at his estate at Ferney. The chief source for the misconception is a line from one of his poems (called "Epistle to the author of the book, The Three Impostors") which is usually translated as: "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him". Many commentators have argued that this is an ironical way of saying that that it does not matter whether God exists or not, although others claim that it is clear from the rest of the poem that any criticism was more focused towards the actions of organized religion, rather than towards the concept of religion itself.

In fact, like many other key figures during the European Enlightenment, Voltaire considered himself a Deist, and he was instrumental in Deism's spread from England to France during his lifetime. He did not believe that absolute faith, based upon any particular or singular religious text or tradition of revelation, was needed to believe in God. He wrote, "It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason". Indeed, his focus on the idea of a universe based on reason and a respect for nature reflected the Pantheism which was increasingly popular throughout the 17th and 18th Centuries.

While not an atheist as such, he was however, opposed to organized religion. Certainly, he was highly critical of the prevailing Catholicism, and in particular he believed that the Bible was an outdated legal and/or moral reference, that it was largely metaphorical anyway (although it still taught some good lessons), and that it was a work of Man and not a divine gift, all of which gained him somewhat of a bad reputation in the Catholic Church. His attitude towards Islam varied from "a false and barbarous sect" to "a wise, severe, chaste, and humane religion". He also showed at one point an inclination towards the ideas of Hinduism and the works of Brahmin priests.

[snip][end]

Can't disagree with his views on religion, nor his views of the Catholic Church at the time, which deserved his barbs. But he really basically was a Deist more than an atheist per se, as many Enlightenment thinkers were.

His advocacy of Enlightened Despotism, though, I find highly distasteful. It was one of Plato's bad ideas, and none of its more recent advocates, including Voltaire, improved on it.

Rule by elites is a wonderful idea, up until the point we have to come up with a criteria for defining the elite, which tends to devolve to the group wanting power suggesting it's themselves. While Voltaire rightly despised hereditary aristocracy, most of the attempts to argue for some other kind of aristocratic rule have not been much better.

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Damn you're smart.
I have to absorb all of that and let it settle before I can make an intelligent comment.

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I regret to say, the university doesn't pay me for my charm, musical talent, or good looks. :mrgreen:

By the way, I teach a course on comparative world religions, pretty much at least once a year.

I can remember many arguments we've had on this board about what a religion is.

One I prefer is Emile Durkheim's definition.
" A religion is a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden -- beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them."

That captures Buddhism, Taoism, Aboriginal religion, and Christianity. Well, I'd throw out the word "Church" but I get what he was trying to say.

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Damn you're smart.
I have to absorb all of that and let it settle before I can make an intelligent comment.

I concur, Seeker1 is a smart one and a joy to read.



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Yes, I agree that Voltaire may have been mistaken in his advocacy for "Enlightened Despotism".

Thank you very much for the link.

Voltaire fails to account for the historical fact that the sons of kings are not always as enlightened as their fathers.
And because monarchies are continued through inheritance many of the difficulties we've seen in our collective human history have come to pass.
The Caesars of Rome come to mind and look at this.
The legacy of the Caesars is the Roman Catholic Church.

Amazing.

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At some point, people should just respect the sovereignty of conscience, and stop.


I had to highlight this-- I love it!

FWIW, the theological foundational document for English-speaking Presbyterians, if not all English-speaking Reformed Protestants, is the 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith. Even the conservative splinters still hold fast (and some actually split because they accused the mainline church of not adhering to it enough). For all of its double predestination and misogyny, it still has an amazing resonance with declarations like this:

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God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his Word, or beside it in matters of faith or worship. So that to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.


"God alone is Lord of the conscience" is still a rallying cry for Presbyterians today. It's even more remarkable when you realize that it is a pre-Enlightenment document.

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If a homosexual is reading this, I would like to encourage them to pray and to repent.
You can change: You can do it!


You first, hon.
Show us how The Change™ is done.

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If a homosexual is reading this, I would like to encourage them to pray and to repent.
You can change: You can do it!


You first, hon.
Show us how The Change™ is done.

:lol:

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If a homosexual is reading this, I would like to encourage them to pray and to repent.
You can change: You can do it!


You first, hon.
Show us how The Change™ is done.

:lol:

change into what?
poof , oh a butterfly!



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Such a startling metamorphosis.

Not.

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part 2

3

4

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