Randi Rhodes Forums

Welcome to the Randi Rhodes Message Boards.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

If you experience difficulties logging in, (i.e. Incorrect Password) please click the forgot password link on the login error screen to have a new password sent to you. If all else fails, register again.

It is currently Thu May 23, 2013 6:39 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
 [ 24 posts ]  1, 2  

Is this the Future of War?


Author Message
 Post subject: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
The Crash & Burn Future of Robot Warfare
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nick-turs ... 08644.html
What 70 Downed Drones Tell Us About the New American Way of War

[snip]

On occasion, RPAs have simply escaped from human control. Over the course of eight hours on a late February day in 2009, for example, five different crews passed off the controls of a Predator drone, one to the next, as it flew over Iraq. Suddenly, without warning, the last of them, members of the North Dakota Air National Guard at Hector International Airport in Fargo, lost communication with the plane. At that point no one -- not the pilot, nor the sensor operator, nor a local mission crew -- knew where the drone was or what it was doing. Neither transmitting nor receiving data or commands, it had, in effect, gone rogue. Only later was it determined that a datalink failure had triggered the drone’s self-destruct mechanism, sending it into an unrecoverable tailspin and crash within 10 minutes of escaping human control.

In November 2009, a Predator launched from Kandahar Air Field in Afghanistan lost touch with its human handlers 20 minutes after takeoff and simply disappeared. When the mission crew was unable to raise the drone, datalink specialists were brought in but failed to find the errant plane. Meanwhile, air traffic controllers, who had lost the plane on radar, could not even locate its transponder signal. Numerous efforts to make contact failed. Two days later, at the moment the drone would have run out of fuel, the Air Force declared the Predator “lost.” It took eight days for its wreckage to be located.

[snip]

Despite a decade of technological, tactical, and strategic refinements and improvements, Air Force and allied CIA personnel watching computer monitors in distant locations have continually failed to discriminate between armed combatants and innocent civilians and, as a result, the judge-jury-executioner drone assassination program is widely considered to have run afoul of international law.

[snip]

As flight hours rise year by year, these stark drawbacks are compounded by a series of technical glitches and vulnerabilities that are ever more regularly coming to light. These include: Iraqi insurgents hacking drone video feeds, a virulent computer virus infecting the Air Force’s unmanned fleet, large percentages of drone pilots suffering from "high operational stress," a friendly fire incident in which drone operators killed two U.S. military personnel, increasing numbers of crashes, and the possibility of an Iranian drone-hijacking, as well as those more than 70 catastrophic mishaps detailed in Air Force accident investigation documents.

Over the last decade, a more-is-better mentality has led to increased numbers of drones, drone bases, drone pilots, and drone victims, but not much else. Drones may be effective in terms of generating body counts, but they appear to be even more successful in generating animosity and creating enemies.

The Air Force’s accident reports are replete with evidence of the flaws inherent in drone technology, and there can be little doubt that, in the future, ever more will come to light. A decade’s worth of futility suggests that drone warfare itself may already be crashing and burning, yet it seems destined that the skies will fill with drones and that the future will bring more of the same.

[snip][end]

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:33 pm
Posts: 8205
Location: aka "Voluble"
Yes.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
Then there's a bumpy ride ahead.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
Our air game is already underway. The ground game is next.

http://forums.di.fm/the-chill-room/pent ... rmy-73171/

The Pentagon is spending £70 billion [$130 billion] on a programme to build heavily-armed robots for the battlefield in the hope that future wars will be fought without the loss of its soldiers' lives.

The scheme, known as Future Combat Systems, is the largest military contract in American history and will help to drive the defence budget up by almost 20 per cent to just over £265 billion [$500 billion] in five years' time.

Much of the cash will be spent computerising the military, but the ultimate aim is to take members of the armed forces out of harm's way. They would be replaced by robots capable of hunting and killing America's enemies.

Gordon Johnson, of the US joint forces research centre, told the New York Times: "The American military will have these kinds of robots. It's not a question of 'if', it's a question of 'when'."

The American military is already planning units of about 2,000 men and 150 robots, among them land-based "infantry" devices and drone aircraft.

In the far future it is hoped that the miniaturised robots will walk like humans, or hover like some birds. Others may look like insects.

Scientists say that, working at full tilt, the process is likely to take at least 20 years.

Robert Finkelstein, the head of one development firm called Robotic Technologies, said the Pentagon has established the goal "but the path is not totally clear".

In the meantime, the military is developing simpler technologies.

The US military has already bought a tracked robot which can enter highly risky sites such as cave complexes favoured by al-Qa'eda.

The machines have been deployed in Afghanistan's caves, digging up roadside bombs in Iraq and guarding weapons storage sites.

The Swords robots come in several versions, carrying either a machine gun, grenade launcher or a light anti-tank weapon.

It is controlled by a soldier from a distance of up to 1,000 yards.

"We were sitting there firing single rounds and smacking bull's-eyes," said Staff Sergeant Santiago Tordillos, who helped to design and test the robot. "We were completely amazed."

That human involvement has proved critical in convincing military lawyers that machines can be used on the battlefield. More advanced machines which can decide whether to kill would also be legal, said Mr Johnson.

"The lawyers tell me there are no prohibitions against robots making life-or-death decisions," he said.

The programme is already causing other nations to reassess their military priorities. Britain's Armed Forces in particular will need to follow the American lead if only because the two militaries fight together so often.

While the cost of the scheme is huge, it may ultimately save large sums of money. Professional soldiers, their dependants and pensions are pricey. Once robotic technology is developed, the Americans say, the cost of a robot soldier might be only 10 per cent that of its human counterpart.

A US navy research centre in San Diego has already produced a robot built to look like a human. At 4ft high, it has a gun on its right arm and a single eye and could shoot at a target.

One researcher, Jeff Grossman, said the intelligence of the machines was increasing. "Now, maybe, we're a mammal. We're trying to get to the level of a primate."

When researchers succeed, a number of troubling moral dilemmas will have to be addressed. Some in the American computer business are asking whether it is acceptable to have machines decide for themselves whether to take human life and what will happen when, inevitably, the robot makes a mistake.

Bill Joy, who helped to found Sun Microsystems, said 21st century machines could become "so powerful that they can spawn whole new classes of accidents and abuses".

[snip][end]

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:33 pm
Posts: 8205
Location: aka "Voluble"
Then there's a bumpy ride ahead.



As opposed to the smooth ride that man-to-man, piloted/manned weaponry, aircraft and vehicles have been?

"Friendly Fire" was born centuries before anyone developed a guided Tomahawk, or a drone. Guards on posts were startled by and shooting comrades long before anyone (other than perhaps da Vinci) considered armed robotics.

An errantly operated M-16 may not take out as many innocents at one time as a drone, until one considers the numbers of unreliably operated M-16s in a given theater vs. the number of errant drones in the same area.

Here's a reminder on the safety and protection of man-on-the-scene warfare.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:20 pm
Posts: 11268
Location: Ich bin ein Voodoo Donut
Pardon my tinfoil hat but SkyNet anyone?

Image

The “mule” drone
By CNN National Security Producer Jennifer Rizzo

“You call, we haul” could be the
motto for a new unmanned helicopter drone being tested to
deliver cargo and supplies to
Marines in Afghanistan.

A first of its kind, the unmanned
chopper can carry 6,000 pounds of supplies to troops in remote and dangerous regions without the risks of sending a piloted aircraft or truck convoy.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/1 ... ule-drone/

_________________
Image



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Portland OR
(snort)

As long as they depend on gps to know where stuff is, they will not get it to work right. Plain old vanilla consumer grade wifi access points can and do clobber L1 gps causing rubberbanding (reported position behind actual), snap to position errors (I'm over here ... no, I'm waaaay over here ... oh, no, sorry, I'm over here), or just plain old insane navigation while posting good health bits.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Portland OR
Snap to position errors created by residential wifi usage in The Pearl neighborhood of downtown Portland.


Attachments:
insane plot.JPG
insane plot.JPG [ 124.61 KiB | Viewed 1027 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2826
Location: Portland OR
Left screen - Navigation errors created in a gps receiver by a 8mbps transfer across a Netgear wifi. Control gps in right screen.


Attachments:
wifi gps insanity.JPG
wifi gps insanity.JPG [ 61.25 KiB | Viewed 1026 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:26 pm
Posts: 3716
Location: Deepest, Darkest America
Yes.


Yes! The Star Wars Death Tech is coming!

_________________
ImageImage



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
As opposed to the smooth ride that man-to-man, piloted/manned weaponry, aircraft and vehicles have been?


I just hope the soldier of the future isn't running some version of Windows.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
Inside the Rise of the Warbots
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/02 ... singers-w/

[snip]

The long answer is that as I looked around at everything from the Roomba that cleans my house (and scares my cat) to the drones my friends in the Air Force were flying, I became more and more convinced that something big was going on. When historians look back at this period, they may conclude that we are today at the start of the greatest revolution that warfare has seen since the introduction of atomic bombs. It may be even bigger. Our new unmanned systems don’t just affect the "how" of war-fighting, but are starting to change the "who" of the fighting at the most fundamental level. That is, every previous revolution in war was about weapons that could shoot quicker, further, or had a bigger boom. That is certainly happening with robots, but it is also reshaping the identity and experience of war. Humankind is starting to lose its 5,000-year-old monopoly of the fighting war.

[snip]

DR: Recently, Globalsecurity.org’s John Pike wrote about robots eventually breaking the last limit to American power — our public’s aversion to body bags. Do you think there’s anything to that?

Singer: Yes, I do think we will see ripple effects on to our politics. A fascinating consensus across the disparate groups I met with for the book was that being able to move more and more Americans out of harm’s way may save lives, but also will change our very decisions on when and where to use force. "They [unmanned systems] lower the threshold for going to war. They make it easier, make war more palatable," said one. "Anything that makes it morally and ethically easier to wage war is not necessarily a good thing," another said. Tellingly, the first quote is from a human rights expert, whose job entailed trying to shut down the prison at Guantánamo Bay; the second is from a special operations officer just back from hunting terrorists to lock up there. Summed up one former Reagan administration Pentagon official, "It will further disconnect the military from society…. There will be more ‘shock and awe’ talk to defray discussions of the costs."

[snip]

Technology has always changed how we look at professions and even ends some of them, but the funny thing is that many of the functions least likely to be roboticized will be in the areas that we generally consider simple. For example, it may take years to train up a sniper who can hit bull’s-eye again and again. But it is technologically easy for a robot to instantly place a targeting laser on a bad guy and shoot him. By comparison, the last thing that computers will ever hope to match is our "emotional intelligence." This is the part of the brain that makes sense of social situations, which is often the toughest part of a soldier’s job in dealing with complex situations in conflicts like
Iraq or Afghanistan.

[snip][end]

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:03 pm
Posts: 11183
Location: Back In The Saddle Again
Sadly, I can see situations where robotics would be the best way to go. I do not ever see a need for autonomous units. And these things can never be sold to police departments. Ever!

_________________
The conservative challenge: Name anything sponsored by conservatives since Carter, that has benefited the masses of America
Image

"OCCUPY THE VOTING BOOTH"--CarmenJonze



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 9281
Location: Sunny Florida
Too late.
http://www.policeone.com/police-technology/robots/
http://science.howstuffworks.com/police-robot3.htm

BTW, I definitely can see very useful purposes for robots in both policing & war; I think the "medbot" concept is very interesting, and in both cases it is probably better to use robots for disarming bombs and explosives than people.

I wish the Pentagon (DARPA) wasn't working on autonomous systems, but they are. Actively.
http://fcw.com/articles/2007/09/21/darp ... earch.aspx

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds. -- Malaclypse the Younger



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this the Future of War?
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:03 pm
Posts: 11183
Location: Back In The Saddle Again
Too late.
http://www.policeone.com/police-technology/robots/
http://science.howstuffworks.com/police-robot3.htm

BTW, I definitely can see very useful purposes for robots in both policing & war; I think the "medbot" concept is very interesting, and in both cases it is probably better to use robots for disarming bombs and explosives than people.

I wish the Pentagon (DARPA) wasn't working on autonomous systems, but they are. Actively.
http://fcw.com/articles/2007/09/21/darp ... earch.aspx



OK, That is a good use for a robot but, you know damn well some ass like Gov. Perry would love to have robotics for crowd control.

I can truthfully say, if America knew just how long they have been developing robotics it would curl their hair 8-)

_________________
The conservative challenge: Name anything sponsored by conservatives since Carter, that has benefited the masses of America
Image

"OCCUPY THE VOTING BOOTH"--CarmenJonze



Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
 [ 24 posts ]  1, 2  

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: